Episode 33:What Do You Do After You Achieve Your Goal | SWAT Negotiation Skills with Terry Tucker

EPISODE 33

[INTRODUCTION]

Terry Tucker (TT):  00:00

If there’s something in your heart, something in your soul that you believe you’re supposed to do, but it scares you, go ahead and do it. Because at the end of your life, the things that you’re going to regret are not going to be the things you did. They’re going to be the things you didn’t do. And it’s going to be too late to go back and do that.

 

Announcer:  00:24

If you’re struggling with your vitality, energy, mood, focus, or sleep, this podcast is for you. Your host, Dr. Ann Tsung, ER doctor, and aerospace flight surgeon, will help you reach for the stars and remove the barriers or blockades that have been holding you back from living your best life. If you’ve been challenged by your health, relationships, or productivity, then it’s time for a breakthrough. So, here’s your host, Dr. Ann Tsung.

 

[INTERVIEW]

 

Ann Tsung (AT):  00:58

Hello, welcome to It’s not Rocket Science Show. And I am your host, Dr. Ann Tsung. And today I have sir Terry Tucker here. He is the author of Sustainable Excellence, and also the founder of Motivational Check. Also, he’s done professional basketball, also a police hostage negotiator. And he’s been fighting cancer. He’s been on this journey for the past 11 years. And the reason why I brought him on the show, it’s because he was able to go through multiple different careers and has sustained his excellence, and continued to innovate, and I thought that his negotiation to skills will be really, really valuable to us because, you know, we’re always trying to be our best self to reach peak performance. But once we get there, how do we sustain it? Or how do we pivot and innovate and go a different route. And we’re always about creating time, what are you going to do with that time that you have created? Are you going to sit back, and relax? Or are you going to innovate further and go benefit the world in a different way? 

 

So thank you again, Terry, for coming to the show. If you would please give a brief introduction to the audience about what you’ve done. And also, what’s the reason why you’re doing what you do? 

 

TT:  02:15

First of all, Dr. Tsung, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. I’m looking forward to talking with you today. Yeah, my background, I’m born and raised on the south side of Chicago. I’m the oldest of three boys. You cannot tell this from my voice or looking at me, but I’m six foot eight inches tall and actually went to college at the Citadel in Charleston, South Carolina, on a basketball scholarship. When I graduated from college, I moved home to find a job. I’m really going to date myself now. But this is long before the internet was available to help people find employment. Fortunately, I was able to find that first job in the corporate headquarters of Wendy’s International, the hamburger chain in their marketing department. Unfortunately, I ended up living at home with my parents for the next three and a half years as I helped my mother care for my father and my grandmother, who were both dying of different forms of cancer.

 

Professionally, as I said, started out at Wendy’s. Then I moved to hospital administration. And then I made a major pivot in my life and became a police officer. And part of what I did during that time was I was a SWAT team hostage negotiator. After my law enforcement career. I ended up starting a school security consulting business, coach girls, high school basketball, became an author in 2020. But for the last 11 years had been dealing with this rare form of cancer. And then finally, my wife and I have been married for almost 30 years, we have one child, that daughter was a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, and is an officer in the new branch, the military, the space force. 

 

AT:  03:42

That is very near and dear to my heart since I’m ain aerospace medicine. 

 

TT:  03:46

Yes, ma’am.

 

AT:  03:48

That is awesome. Yes. And then throughout your journey, you’ve had so many different experiences, like what led you to create Sustainable Excellence and Motivational Check? And can you tell us a little bit more about it?

 

TT:  04:02

So the book Sustainable Excellence: The 10 Principles to Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life was really a book that was born out of two conversations I had one was with a former player that I had coached in high school, who had moved with her fiancé to Colorado, where my wife and I live. And the four of us had dinner one night, and I remember saying to her, you know, I was really excited that you’re living close, and I can watch you find and live your purpose. And she got real quiet for a while. And she looked at me and she said, Well, Coach, what do you think my purpose is? So, I have no idea what your purpose is. But that’s what your life should be about finding the reason you were put on the face of this earth, using your unique gifts and talents, and living that reason. So that was one conversation. 

 

And then I had a young man in college who reached out to me on social media, and he asked me what I thought were the most important things that he should learn and not just to be successful in his job or business, but to be successful in life. And I didn’t want to give them that, you know, get up early where Card help others not that those aren’t weren’t, those aren’t incredibly important. But I wanted to see if I could go deeper with them. So, I spent some time, you know, taking notes and eventually kind of had these 10 thoughts, these 10 ideas, these 10 principles. And so I sent them to him. And then I kind of stepped back and I was like, well, you know, I got a life story that fits underneath this principle, or know, somebody whose life emulates that principle. So literally, I part of my cancer journey has been the amputation of my leg in 2020. And while I was healing during that amputation period, I sat down at the computer every day, and I built stories, and they’re real stories about real people underneath the principles. And that’s how Sustainable Excellence came to be. 

 

In terms of Motivational Check, which is a daily blog that I have, and I put up a thought for the day, I have recommendations for videos to watch, books to read, and things like that. People were suggesting that, you know, I just somehow find my purpose in life and get it out there, you know, not just sort of keep it to myself. And so I started this blog, and I am inept when it comes to, you know, technology, it took me literally four months to develop four pages my daughter could have done in about 15 minutes. But literally, it took me four months to do this, because I didn’t understand it, I had to go and I had to learn. And so when I created this, and the title actually comes, Motivational Check, comes from when I was in the police academy, and our defensive tactics instructor used to have us give us he gave us that phrase motivational check. So anytime you were having a bad day, anytime things were really hard, really tough, you could just scream out that phrase, and the rest of the class would respond with a loud 84, we were the 84th recruit class to the Cincinnati Police Department Academy. And just to let the person know that, hey, you’re not alone, we’re in this together, and we’re all going to get through it together. So Motivational Check just seemed like a good name. When I was looking for something to call my blog,

 

AT:  06:56

And what would you say? If you have like a one liner? What is the message that people can get value from? From your blog? 

 

TT:  07:06

Yeah, the message for me is, you know, people ask me what I do. I help people find and live their uncommon and extraordinary life, I guess that’s sort of my elevator pitch, you know, in one line, and again, I’m not going to sit here and tell your audience I have all the answers I don’t. But I have things that have worked for me that I’ve been very fortunate to learn along the way that I just I’m trying to put out there at this point in time. It’s not about making money, it’s not about getting famous, it’s about trying to make a difference in people’s lives a positive difference in their lives. And that’s what my goal is now, you know, we were talking before we jumped on, you know, the recording about what our why is what our purpose is. 

 

And I think my why has changed multiple times over my life. You know, first it was sports, athletics, basketball, which got me a scholarship to college, and then it was really to be in law enforcement. That was my passion. And now is, in all honesty, I’m probably coming to the end of my life, is to put as much goodness positivity, motivation, love back into the world as I possibly can, with whatever time I have left. So I don’t want people to think that your wife or your purpose has to be one thing my experience has been, it has changed throughout my life based on where I am in my life.

 

AT:  08:24

Yeah, and I agree saying like, used to be I want to be a physician, though, after becoming a physician, I have changed a little bit, you know, I want to go into it was physician wanting to contribute to NASA. And now I’ve learned all these tactics on productivity, health, creating deep relationships, I want to share that as well. You can have multiple why’s, I’ve often heard other people saying, I don’t know my passion. I don’t know my purpose. I don’t know how to find it. Because they’re looking for that singular, why or singular hobby that turns into a passion, though it had been developed throughout your lifetime. And it’s okay to change. 

 

So, what would you say for somebody who was there? And it’s like, you know, I’ve heard it actually many times, like, I don’t know what I am good. I don’t know what I want to do. I don’t know what my passion is, or currently I have this job, just to pay the bills, but I don’t enjoy it. What are your thoughts about, you know, what would you say? Or what questions should they ask themselves? Would you say,

 

TT:  09:22

I think that you make a good point there. You know, we all would love it if our job or our occupation would line up with our passion. But as you said that a lot of times doesn’t happen. Yeah, as you said, you know, I’ve got a job over here, and that’s what I do to pay the bills. But what I’m really interested in is to write or to paint or to be a podcast host or whatever it is that that you feel, and I always tell when, especially when I speak to young people, if there’s something in your heart, something in your soul that you believe you’re supposed to do, but it scares you, go ahead and do it. Because at the end of your life, the things that you’re going to regret are not going to be the things you did. They’re going to be the things you didn’t do. And it’s going to be too late to go back and do them. 

 

And you get on when I wrote Sustainable Excellence. There’s a chapter in there that I titled “Most People Think with Their Fears and Their Insecurities Instead of Using Their Minds.” And I know I’ve done that I know if like, you know, I want to do this, oh, wait a minute, maybe I’m not smart enough, or I don’t have enough information, or what will people say about me if I fail, that’s thinking with our fears, and our insecurities. That’s not thinking with our mind. We all have unique gifts and talents. Like if you said to me, you know, Terry, go ahead and be an accountant, I would be like, Oh, my gosh, that doesn’t interest me at all. But for some people, that’s really interesting. And working with numbers, trying to figure things out is interesting. 

 

So I would say to you find things that you enjoy, and find somebody that’s willing to pay you to do those things. And you may or it may not be the perfect job. And that’s another thing, people are always looking for the perfect job. There is no perfect job. Every job has its downsides. Every job has things that you don’t like about it. So don’t think that oh, there’s some things I don’t like, I could never do it. Jump in with both feet. See what happens. If you don’t like it, you can always make a change in your life. But you have to start, you know, forget about the past, you know, people are always looking about, you know, I made this mistake, or that wasn’t forget about it start right now and commit to yourself to move forward.

 

AT:  11:26

Yeah, exactly. So, I completely agree. Because you know, if you’re based that you’re never going to take action, and I think the best way around it is what I found is to fear set. And that’s something I learned from Tim Ferriss where you basically list out all of your fears, all the risk, and actually put a number amount of costs, I could lose like thousands of dollars, hundreds of dollars. Okay, so what can you mitigate that? Or can you not mitigate that I could lose time I could lose money I could lose like, and a lot of times like people feel like lost time is a waste of time. But actually, when you look back, and you realize you actually learned so much through that wasted time that it was like a huge lesson for you. And it’s not that I don’t think anything is ever wasted. So if you can fear set your current fears or anything you want to do, then come up with a strategy to mitigate it. Or you realize, oh, actually, it’s not that bad. I can actually afford the loss. And it’s not that bad. And it’s not as terrible as I thought it was.

 

TT:  12:31

You’re right. And I remember Nelson Mandela, the former president of South Africa, I used to have a quote, he said, “I never lose, I only learned or I win.” You know, and so many people look at successful people and think, wow, you know, I want to be like that they don’t see all the failures, they don’t see all the times that person messed up or made bad decisions. The road to success is paved with failure. And so that was another chapter I wrote in my book, the importance of failure of failing and failing often, especially when you’re young, do things make mistakes, screw things up. It’s okay. Because especially when you’re young, you know, you don’t have all you’re not invested. You don’t have a family, you don’t have children, you don’t have things like that, that, you know, oh, I can’t do that now. Because what might you know, how’s it going to impact my family, when you’re young, do all kinds of things, you know, anything that you find an interest in, go ahead and do it. Because who knows, maybe that interest will turn in to your purpose, your passion, and you can get somebody to pay you to do it?

 

AT:  13:29

And for somebody who’s listening to it, how do you know when you found it? Or how you’re supposed to feel? What is your life supposed to look like or a vision of an end goal, when you’ve achieved that sustainable excellence?

 

TT:  13:45

I think and again, I’ll speak to what it was like for me, you know, my first two jobs were in business because that’s what my father wanted me to do. And he was sick, and he was dying. So out of love and respect for him. I went into business, but they weren’t my passion. I mean, I couldn’t wait to get up in the morning and go to work, right. I mean, that was not like, I gotta go to work today. But when I got into law enforcement, which, which I believe was my purpose. I couldn’t wait to go to work. And it wasn’t, you know, it was how can I make a difference? What are we going to do today that is going to make a difference, a positive difference in somebody’s life. So if you’ve got that feeling, you know, when you get up in the morning, and you’re like, Man, I can’t wait to go do whatever it is I’m going to do. And again, think about, Okay, I gotta go to work today. But you know what, when I get off work tonight, I’m gonna go play with my band, because I love playing the saxophone. And that’s my passion. If you can’t wait to do those kinds of things. That’s when I think you know, in your heart, that you’re doing the right thing. And it may come up, it may take some time. It’s, you know, there’s no such thing as an overnight success. So don’t think that Well, gee, you know, I don’t feel like going to work today. Okay, that’s all right. But if you’re not willing to go to work and get up and give it everything you’ve got every day, then that’s probably not your passion or your purpose.

 

AT:  15:01

Yeah, I want to emphasize a few points, like you said, number one, it’s okay to currently do the job that you’re doing now, and also start something else or participate in something else that may be your passion. It’s okay. Because you know, a lot of times we’re thinking one or the other one or the other, you know, I gotta quit my job to do this. But that’s not the case, you could spend 15 minutes, 30 minutes on working on something to create something part time while you’re working your true job. And if you can’t wait to go, that’s one point. And then the second thing I think I’ve told people too, is like, if you forget to eat, drink, or go to the restroom, because you’re so focused and in flow and doing something, then that’s potentially where your purpose and your passion lies, and you just gotta find somebody to pay you for it. And also, depending on the work that you do, a lot of times after you do it, I mean, at least for me, I feel energized by after like speaking with somebody, I don’t know if that’s the case with you, but it actually doesn’t drain me but I get super energized after

 

TT:  16:07

It does. And I am treated every three weeks for the tumors that I have in my lungs now. And during that those two weeks that I have off, I do, I’m a guest on podcast, like I am doing with you. And that gives me purpose, that gives me energy. And my wife and I kind of go back and forth with each other because like, you know, you got to rest, you got to take it easy, you got to get your blood counts up. And I always kind of joke with her. It’s like I get plenty of rest when I’m dead. You know, right now, this energizes me, this gives me a reason to get up and not focus on my disease, but focus on how I can make a difference in people’s lives.

 

AT:  16:43

Yeah, thank you for that, too. And I think the next question I do have for you is, so now that they find our hobby, say or their passion, they go for it, they achieve it, they reach that goal. And so what’s next? Because I think that’s a very important point that you talk about in Sustainable Excellence.

 

TT:  17:04

Yeah, it’s how do you sustain that? And you and I were talking earlier about what is excellence? And you know, I wrote the book, but I don’t know, I don’t know what excellence is because you and I may look at it at a you know, a piece of art or a sports team, or whatever it is. And you may say, hey, they’re good. And I may say they’re excellent. It’s like so so excellence, like beauty is sort of in the eye of the beholder, you have to define excellence for yourself. And when you’ve determined that that is, but say, you get to that point. So you say, you know, and I’ve reached the top of the mountain, and I’ve gotten there, and I’m feeling good. And so many people, you know, sort of kick back, put their feet up on the desk, pour themselves a drink, and be like I’ve arrived. And then six months later, or a year later, boom, another company or somebody else surpasses them. And you’re like, wait a minute, what happened? How did that happen? It happened because in order to sustain excellence, you need to innovate, you need to change, you need to find a different way to deliver your product. 

 

I remember when I started my speaking business, it was right before COVID hit, and everything shut down. Nobody was hiring people to do motivational speaking, not even online, that really hadn’t become a thing yet. And somebody reached out to me and said, Hey, would you like to be a guest on my podcast? And my first response, in all honesty was what’s a podcast, I had no idea what it was at the time. But I was like, oh, okay, that’s a different way that’s retooling what I wanted to do. And I can retool and use podcast as a way to get my message out. So you know, I’m a perfect example of somebody that had to say, well, I can’t do it this way, I’ve got to find another way to do it. So I would always look to innovate, I would always look to do things differently. I would always look to change the way you deliver your product, not to change for change’s sake, but to change to find a better, more efficient way to do it.

 

AT:  18:53

Yeah, especially, you know, we’re all about saving time freedom, as well, you know, in addition to financial freedom, emotional freedom, but there are usually systems and processes that you can change in order to automate, delegate, eliminate, or reach a broader audience in less time, because your time is really the one thing, I think that is the most valuable. So don’t settle when you reach that point of success that that first goal. But the next goal to work on, I don’t want to say should but ideally would be to make it more efficient to innovate in your processes. And to pivot if you’re not happy, like once you sit there for a while, if you don’t have the next goal set, a lot of times you’re not happy either. I don’t know if that’s the case with you. But for me, if I’m there, I don’t have the next thing to look forward to then it’s just like, I’m just sitting there and little restless.

 

TT:  19:50

Exactly. You do it. And I think that’s the kind there’s an entrepreneur by the name of Ed Mylett. And he talks about the four types of people in the world and In the first part, he said are the unmotivated people. And he said that’s the vast majority of people in the world. He said, the second group are the motivated. And he said, it’s pretty simple, you know, sort of a carrot and a stick. If I do this, then you know, I will get that. But then he talks about the third and the fourth ones. And these are really kind of where at least I think people like you and I aspire to. And the next one is the inspirational people and inspiration coming from in spirit, you move people with your energy. And then the last group are the aspirational people, people want to be like you. So that’s what I’m trying to do in my life. I’m trying to get to that aspirational level with the understanding that you and I have seen this, where so many people just live a casual life. And as a result of that, their goals, their dreams, their ambitions become a casualty of that kind of unplanned living. So it’s really kind of what do you want to be in your life? What do you want to do? Do you want to be the unmotivated person? Or do you want to be the aspirational person that moves other people?

 

AT:  21:08

And I’m curious to know your thoughts. How do you balance becoming aspirational? Because I’m trying to do this myself and that’s why I’m asking you. There are so many things on my, there are a lot of things on my list. I’m focusing on five for the year. How do you balance? When is it enough? I don’t know if you understand my question. You can keep chasing, when is it enough? And you feel like inner peace, inner joy and inner? What do you call it? Just feeling content?

 

TT:  21:39

Yeah, I would say to answer that question, I think you have to go back and understand what your values are in life, you know, what hill are you willing to die on? What are you willing to give your life to, with the understanding that you may give your entire life to it and still never be successful? Or still never see, you know, I mean, you’re a physician, you’ve seen people give their entire life to medical research and nothing come of it. But then something somebody takes their medical research after they’re gone, and develops it into something that saves lives. So, what are your values we’re always hung up on, I want a new year I got here, my New Year’s resolutions, and here are my goals. But we don’t anchor those to what we value in life. But if you can determine what you value, I value my family, I value character, I value humility, then you can start saying, okay, here are my goals based on what my values are. And if you can do that, then you get to a point I think in life where you say, okay, my family is the most important thing in the world. Yeah, I could go to work right now. Or I could work on a new book, or I could do whatever. But you know what, I want to spend more time with my family. 

 

Because at the end of the day, I mean, as you said, all we have is time were put on this earth, we live our lives and we die. Everything in between birth and death is time. What do you do with that time to make yourself find the why in your life to give, I think there’s a tendency for us that we’re born empty, you know, we go to high school, we go to college, you know, we do we go in the military, or whatever, and we get out. And then we start making a life for ourselves, we get a job, we get a car, we live somewhere, and we consume, we fill ourselves up. And what I like to ask people is what if you looked at it from just the opposite way? What if you looked at it as you were born fool, and your job in life, your purpose in life, your why in life, is to pour yourself out for the betterment of yourself, your fellow man, your Creator, whatever you believe that to be? It’s an entirely different way of looking at life than the vast majority of people, I think, look at it.

 

AT:  23:41

Yeah, that’s the first time I’ve ever heard of it. So that’s amazing. I’m gonna keep using that. So, the first question for the audience is, what are your values, maybe pick three, three of your most important values, and non-negotiables. Say, family, as an example, like, we have family values that we set for us like it’s going to be playfulness, it’s going to be compassion and courage. So those three are family values, that we’re teaching our son. And I think that could be a good example, like what you’re doing? Are you being playful? Are you being compassionate? Are you courageous? Are you trying and not afraid to fail? But are you still living life moment to moment being playful? And are you showing compassion to those around you? And yourself? So that’s a really great tip. And I will make sure that everything I’m doing on my goals, if it’s not aligned with those three values, then say no to it, and I’ll know when that’s enough. Then if it’s all aligning.

 

TT:  24:47

I’m like, Yeah, I really do. If you know your values, you know your goal. If what you’re doing isn’t aligned with your values, then it’s probably not something you either don’t want to do or it’s something you don’t want to spend as much time on as maybe you’ve been spending before.

 

AT:  25:00

Yeah, and I really want to make this point that, you know, a lot of people feel guilty about saying no, which we can get to the negotiation part, nobody is going to look out for your time, your health, your family as much as you will. So I’ll say that again, like, nobody is going to look out for your health, your wealth, your family, your time, as much as you will. So I hear a lot about, you know, I don’t want to cut time because I feel bad for my co-workers, because I, you know, we’re short on people. So, I don’t want to cut my chips. So they don’t want to say no, but yet, it’s taking time away from their family, which is one of their non-negotiables. So I want to move on to like the negotiation part, I’m curious about your thoughts, and what you can share with us about how to negotiate more time for ourselves, benefits, salary, or, you know, with coworkers, bosses, partners, whatever. Sure, you have a lot of tips for us.

 

TT:  25:55

Sure. So I guess I’ll start out with this, you know, in terms of your message, so if you and I are talking 7% of your message is based on your words, 38% of your message is based on your tone of voice, and 55% of your message is based on your body language and your facial expressions. So when I was negotiating as a hostage negotiator, I didn’t have that 55%. You know, I was just going off of what people were saying, and how they were saying it. And you know, as a police officer 99% of what you do is face-to-face with another person. And I would imagine, as a physician, the same thing, you’re dealing with patients, it’s face to face, if you had to, you know telemedicine with somebody where you couldn’t see them, but you just had to talk to him on the phone, how much harder would that be for you to do your job? 

 

So one of the big things that, you know, we talked about was tactical empathy, seeing a situation from the other person’s point of view, asking them how they were feeling and making the commitment to understand where they were coming from not agree with them that necessarily, you know, if they were a homicide suspect we were going after, like, I’m not going to agree with you. But I want to understand where you’re coming from, and things like that. So no was, you know, everybody thinks no is bad. But no, it’s not. No, it’s not a failure, because no deal is better than a bad deal. If that makes sense. So no, for a lot of people, especially when negotiating is more like it’s comfortable. If I say yes to you. That’s really only a yes, if there’s a how behind it. Yes, I want to work with you as a company to company. Well, how do we do that? Well, we’re going to do this, this and this. If there’s no how with it, then it’s really not it’s kind of an empty, yes. Or a counterfeit type of yes. And there’s a tiered approach to saying no. And hopefully this maybe will help your audience.

 

AT:  27:55

I’m gonna give you a case two, would you like to do the tiered approach first? The foundation?

 

TT:  28:01

Yeah, I think a good case study would probably be better. So go ahead.

 

AT:  28:04

Okay, let’s do okay. So it’s a real-life scenario, actually. So, physician, mom, multiple kids, working a lot of shifts in the ER, and trying to cut down but it’s very hard to cut down because the medical director, you know, really needs their shifts filled, they’re short-staffed, and she says, like, everyone is doing it. Everybody is sacrificing everybody’s pitching in. So how, as a mom, and as a physician-mom, how would you negotiate more time without feeling the guilt of letting your co-workers down?

 

TT:  28:36

I mean, I think I would just say, look, here are my values. I want to spend more time with my family. So, the director of the ER, the director of medicine comes to you and says, Well, you know, you need to spend, you know, spend more time here at work. And I think the first part of that tier is, you say, Well, how am I supposed to do that? And then you begin the sort of dance you begin the negotiation. And then he says, or she says, Okay, maybe it’s not going to be 20 more hours, but I need you to do 15 more hours. And that individual would say, Well, yeah, I mean, your offers generous, but I’m sorry, that’s just doesn’t work for me and my family. And then you talk about it some more, and then maybe says, Okay, well, we’re going to do I’m going to do, you’re going to do 10 hours. The third part is I’m sorry, but I’m afraid I can’t do that. And then you talk about, okay, do do five hours. And then the last tier is I’m sorry, no, I can’t do that. So you toward sort of tier it down to an understanding that you know, your answer is going to be no, no, I’m not going to do 20 hours, I’m not going to do 15. I’m not going to do 10 I’m not going to do five, but trying to get that person to understand where you’re coming from. I mean, you’re not just saying no, I’m not doing it. You’re giving that sort of slow-tiered approach to where you get to the point where eventually you’re going to have to say I’m sorry, no, I’m not doing that.

 

AT:  30:00

And if you do have a number in mind that you say you’re okay, with five extra hours, you just keep going with that tiered approach until you get to the five.

 

TT:  30:08

Yeah, exactly. And again, you know, you’re just not coming out and saying no, you’re sort of massaging it in a way where Oh, your offer’s very generous, but I’m sorry, that doesn’t work for me. Now, you just said no, but it’s a softer No, than no, I’m not doing that.

 

AT:  30:25

And I’m guessing in person is better than email? Yes. Sorry.

 

TT:  30:29

In-person is because I mean, you know, it’s, think about cyberbullying, you know, in schools and stuff like that. You’re willing to say something on a computer to me like, Oh, I hate your hair or, your outfit today was, you know, was ridiculous. But you would never say that to me face to face. So yeah, absolutely make people talk to you face to face. I love it. A lot of people don’t, especially because everybody’s used to doing this. 

 

AT:  30:52

And that’s, that’s, yeah, I agree like face to face, you can get so much done, you can get more empathy, and you can read the body language better. So, it sounds like, you know, first, identify the value states or values to the medical director. And then even though they’re probably going to say, No, I really need you everyone is sacrificing everyone’s doing it. You keep saying, that’s a very generous offer. But I’m sorry, I can’t do it. Or I don’t see how I can do it. You show me how I can you know, meet my values, spend time with my family and provide you these hours? And they kind of go to your down?

 

TT:  31:28

Yeah, exactly. To the point where you actually have to say, I’m sorry, no, but you know, the tiered approach is more of a soft, no, you’re not just saying no, you’re kind of giving them you know, how am I supposed to do that? And when you use that was one thing, when we negotiated, we would use how and what questions because what those did was engaged the other person to help us find a solution. So, you know, if I’m negotiating with somebody, it’s like, how are we going to get you out? Now that person now is engaged with me? Because that’s my goal to try to get them out safely. That’s my goal. Now you’re engaged, because I’ve asked you, how are we gonna do this? Oh, well, you know, if you’re okay, so and without them even realize the at how and what questions are the kinds of questions that engage you to help solutions? We used to stay away from why questions because why questions sound accusatory. Why did you do that? Dr. Tsung? Wait a minute, is he accusing me have something? So, we stayed away from why questions, and try to use how and what questions because they engage the other person in helping you to find the solution. And that’s what negotiating is, it’s getting the other person to do what you want them to do.

 

AT:  32:39

Yeah, I’m gonna touch on the wording, because I think that’s very important. And then go back a little bit just so you that you know, if you feel guilty for letting down your co-workers and your work, just remember that again, when people are on their deathbed, they’re usually afraid, I mean, they’re usually regretting the time that they didn’t spend with their loved ones, not how much they didn’t work.

 

TT:  33:05

So what are you thinking about? Yeah, I wish I would have spent more time at the office or the ER, you know, or NASA? Well, I wish I would have spent more time with my kids or my husband or my wife or my significant other. Yeah,

 

AT:  33:16

yeah, nobody’s gonna watch out for your time, your family as much as you do. So that’s what I’m going to say about that. And then regarding the wording, I think it’s so important, you take out should you take out why you take out, there’s something I have to as well, you never have to do anything, how, what questions are so important, and which, I wonder if you have any examples of negotiating between couples, like say, like, now we have a newborn and my husband and I are talking, you know, negotiating roles and responsibility and tasks, you do this, and I do this, but I do this, it’s, you know, becomes more transactional than I like in a relationship. And I’m curious to know what your thoughts are.

 

TT:  33:56

When you put the emotional part into it. And if you think about what we did, as negotiators, when we’ve all been to the park and saw a teeter-totter or seesaw, when we started negotiating, the person’s emotional end was way up in the air and their rational end was down on the ground. And by asking those how and what questions by labeling their feelings and things like that, we would eventually develop rapport or trust with them, and get empathy for them and get to that, that teeter-totter to where it was sort of at equilibrium. And then using more questions and more discussion, to get to the point where their rational brain was up in the air and their emotional brain was down in the ground, because we all make better decisions when we use our rational brain as opposed to our emotional brain. 

 

So when immediately when you start jumping to family and things like that, I mean, you and I were talking before the recording where I have all this knowledge you know, from all this time being a negotiator, but when it came to our daughter, it was like, the emotion got into it and all that The Knowledge went right out the window. So I always feel uncomfortable when I talk about family stuff, because it’s, I think, one in any relationship. And even when negotiating, we’d never lie to people, you know, people would say to us, I’ll come out, but I want you to promise me, I’m not going to go to jail. And we would have to say, Well, I’m sorry, but when you come out, you are going to go to jail, and then we would deflect the conversation to something more good. So, I guess the first thing I would say is, don’t do anything that would undermine that trust with your husband. So, you know, realize that we’re going to negotiate from a position of love of caring of what’s best for us, and what’s best for our son. So I would start with that. 

 

And then, I mean, you love each other. So, you’re willing to do more things than you know, I’m not gonna, I don’t love the guy I’m negotiating with or the woman I’m negotiating with, you love your husband, and you want to do what’s in the best interest of your children. And so, you’ve got to figure out, you got to figure that out. And I don’t know, if there’s a magic formula or, or anything that I can save you other than to negotiate with each other under the umbrella of trust and love, don’t do anything to violate that don’t lie or anything like that, you know, say you’re gonna do something that you know, you can’t commit to, and then just try to figure it out. It’s not easy. I mean, I work night shift my entire police career, and my wife works during the day, which is the reason why I only have one child. But you know, it was kind of one of those things where we had to figure it out. And there were nights I went to work, carrying a gun on, you know, two or three hours of sleep, because I gotta go pick up our daughter from school, or she’s got a recital or a play that I committed that I would be to. So, you know, sometimes you just gotta suck it up for what’s best for your family.

 

AT:  36:42

Yeah, I agree. And a lot of times when couples are having discussions, or even escalating to fights and arguments, you’re arguing about little things like details, but really, when you step back, oh, we both actually have the same intentions. Say we both have the same intention of safety for our children, but we have different methods. So how do we reach a middle ground for the safety of our children, because we both love our child, and we want what’s best, but we just bought it not like buttheads but like, have different methods. And that’s all you figure out what’s actually the end goal, the end goal is be safe, and how do you get there, that’s what you discuss. But some people are like arguing about what your methods right or wrong or your methods right or wrong, that’s not a time well spent.

 

TT:  37:30

It’s not and when you get emotions into it, when you start, you know, well, I’m doing all this and you’re not good. Okay, now emotions have done it. And I would suggest that if that starts, both of you sit down and hold hands, and then start talking about it. Because it’s a whole lot harder to scream at somebody that you have physical contact with, and I’m holding your hand, you know, I may be upset with you, because I don’t think your foot you’re pulling your fair share. But it’s a lot easier. And you know, the emotion kind of ratchets down, when you’re sitting down and you’re holding each other’s hand. So you know, it’s, it’s easier to fly off the handle and your hands are going and stuff like that. And the other thing I guess I would suggest is to label those emotions. You know, you’re not doing your fair share doctor Tsung, Well, you seem to be like, you’re really pissed at me. Well, yeah, I’m really pissed at you. And again, you get the person to burn off we would that’s what we would do, we would we would ask them, you know, an open-ended question, they would talk about it, we would parrot their last three words back to them and attach an emotion to it. And then we would go silent, we would spend at least five minutes or five seconds in silence. Because what that does is makes them uncomfortable, gets them to talk more burns off that emotional energy. Now we’re talking rationally, and we can come to a conclusion or an understanding.

 

AT:  38:50

So, what if I was saying, you know, I feel like if you’re trying to burn off my energy, what if I would say, I feel like I’ve just been doing a lot. There’s so much on my list. And I’m feeling I don’t know, like, you know, what, what list are you going to check off? Like, what item are you going to check off

 

TT:  39:05

How do you want me to handle this? 

 

AT:  39:06

Check off more items. Do more?

 

TT:  39:10

And what what’s that going to lead to?

 

AT:  39:13

I hope to feel like less stress on me, I guess like a feeling like, I can feel a little relieved that I guys have all this mounting task to do for us.

 

TT:  39:23

So, it seems like you believe that I’m not pulling my weight here. And you want me to take on more responsibility.

 

AT:  39:31

I feel like it would help if you would tell me which one you’re able to do. And by what because I do feel like there’s a ton on my checklist and I’m checking a lot of them off one by one. And there hasn’t really been any progress from your side.

 

TT:  39:50

So yeah, you don’t see any progress from my side.

 

AT:  39:53

This is impromptu by the way. This was not planned guys. But this is a real scenario.

 

TT:  39:59

You know, that’s what we would do you would say something and I would parrot back your last three words, and then I’d shut up. And that gets you go, you know, and now you’re, well, how do I say, and again, you know, if I’m married to you, I love you, I want what’s best for you and our child, you know, it’s entirely different when I’m trying to get somebody to come out, you know, he’s got a gun or got a hostage or something like that. But that’s the technique, what we just did are the kinds of questions and the things that we would say, to get people to do that. 

 

So, and I think what when I say to you, you know, gee, and you seem really pissed. What that does is get you to understand that it okay, he understands, he understands I’m really ticked off at, you know, that I don’t think he’s, he’s pulling his weight. And that was one of the big things as a negotiator where, you know, if somebody was ranting and raving and yelling and screaming, and I said, you seem a little upset. I totally missed it. You know, I totally missed that. And, what I’m trying to do is develop that relationship, develop that rapport, develop that trust. And if I don’t get that emotion right, then I’m not developing that trust, like, No, you understand what I’m saying? I’m pissed as hell, you know? So, it’s that kind of a thing. So having me be able to tell you or say, Jan, you seem like you don’t feel I’m pulling my weight here. Yeah, he gets it. He gets where I’m coming from. Okay, now. All right, good. We’re on the same page. We’re not on the same page emotionally. There’s no way we’re gonna figure this thing out.

 

AT:  41:26

And how do you when you said that, I felt like, I didn’t want to seem accusatory, because you don’t want to come off, you know, especially if somebody you love like, you want to come off like compassion, and not criticize him for, you know, pulling weight or anything like that. How do you navigate that? 

 

TT:  41:45

Yeah, first of all, you don’t make it personal. And it’s easy to do, it’s easy to, it’s easy to take the low, you know, the low hanging fruit and grab it, you know, and kind of zing your partner. But that doesn’t, it doesn’t do anything. If you understand that the end goal is to do what you both need to do for the care of your son, then first of all, don’t zing them, you know, and I like to sing people. So you know, that was hard for me to do. But don’t zing the person. But understand, again, it goes you know, like we were talking about values when you I’m going to set a goal. What are my values? My values are My Son, our son, our values are our family, my commitment and love to you. Okay, we can work this out. Okay, I don’t think you’re pulling your weight. And I might say to you, well, what makes you say that? And you would say whatever, you know what you’re spending all the time at work, and you’re doing all this kind of thing. Okay, so you feel I’m not spending enough time with you. I’m not spending enough time with our son. I’m not spending enough time committing to our family. Yeah, that’s exactly what I think you’re doing. But I’ve also got you ramped up now. You know? Yeah, exactly. That’s what now just now the emotion side has gotten up. How do we get that back? So it’s, it’s a dance, but it’s got to be a dance where trust and love are the overarching things with it?

 

AT:  42:59

Yeah, it sounds like yes, once you have a foundation, just think about your family values, think about the love you have for each other, do the hand-holding. And I think that’s going to make the conversation a lot easier, I’m going to use that great advice. Because I think very often, when we’re having discussions, we’re further and further from each other or don’t want to hold each other. And then we forget how it was like when you know the relationship or start or even probably your kids to this applies to all of your family, you know, if you can just hug them touch them. If you’re negotiating with your kids just think about the common values and go from there. That’s what it sounds like. Right?

 

TT:  43:37

Exactly. And think about, you know, I mean, you know, you work as an ER physician, you know, I don’t know what your husband does, but you know, you come home from work, you’re tired. And we’re gonna have this discussion now? I’m exhausted. I mean, I think it’s important, especially when there are things you know, it’s not critical. We don’t you know, it’s not a life-and-death issue here. Find a time when you’re both feel, you know, you’ve been rested, he’s committed, he’s not watching a ball game or something like that, where you know, you get to get Okay, let’s talk about this. How can we, how can we work this out? And my wife and I did that all the time. It was like, you know, don’t hit me. You know, I just got home from work at seven o’clock in the morning. And now you want to talk about I’ve worked all night. I can’t do this. Look, when you come home from work tonight. We’ll sit down after dinner after our daughter goes to bed we’ll talk about and figure out how we can work this out.

 

AT:  44:23

Yeah, the timing the energy, it’s all important. I completely agree. I thank you for that part, because that was something that I thought you know, for was useful for me as well. And with the rest of the time I have I do want to Well, I wonder if you will be able to share like a quick scenario. Any tips in terms of salary negotiation with appreciation? I mean, with inflation going up so much. I know a lot of people are trying to negotiate their salaries. I’m curious to know what tips do you have to approach that?

 

TT:  44:52

A couple of things first of all, like if you’re going in for you know you’re starting to look for a job you go in for an interview in the initial Meeting never, never, never, never, never talk about salary, talk about benefits, talk about what your title is going to be, never talk about those things. If you’re forced to say, you know, hey, what are your salary requirements give a range, say, you know, with the understanding that the low end of the range is the very minimum that you would be willing to take for whatever this particular job is. And there are websites, there’s glassdoor.com, there’s salary.com, LinkedIn, Indeed, where you can search Glassdoor will, will let you search companies to see what they paid for other jobs, that will give you an idea because employees can post you know, stuff on there. I’m a little leery with that. Because, you know, most of the time, if you’re happy, you’re not going to post something positive. But if you’re not happy, you’re going to post something negative. So be a little leery on what you read in terms of what people are saying, because those are usually the disgruntled people, but know what you’re worth. Know your value to the organization. And what I always tell people is, if you want to make big bucks, you’ve got to find a problem and add value to that company to solve that problem. So if you’re just coming in and say, I’m going to move, you know, widget a from one side of the table to the other, okay, you’re not going to make $100,000, get a company car and have an office in the corner. You know, that’s, that’s just not going to happen. 

 

So never talk about salary, benefits or title to begin with. If you’re forced to give, hey, what were you making it your own company? Or what are you looking for here, give a range and get that range based on the homework that you did before you go in there. And the other thing I would say to people is, take your time, well, here’s what we’re awkward, okay, I’ll take it that makes you seem needy, even if you are needy, you don’t want to come across as someone that’s needy. So take your time, go back and look at the entire off. Maybe they’re offering you great benefits, but the salaries not great, but you’ve got great benefits, you’ve got four weeks of paid vacation, you can work at home, you know, four days a week, five days a week, all the time, whatever it is, maybe that, you know, you look at the totality the offer, that’s a pretty good offer, maybe I’m not making this much money, but I’ve got great benefits, I’ve got all these other things that that I really want. So I would say take your time, and I would look at the whole offer on its merit. 

 

And don’t be afraid to counter, especially if you know what your value is if you know, look at this company, this is what I did. I can bring that to your company. And I believe that this is what I feel I am worth. I mean, the worst they can say is no. And then you’re sort of back to where you were when they made the initial offer.

 

AT:  47:34

How do you get over the fear that if you counter you may look bad by your boss and just have creating like bad feelings between the two of you?

 

TT:  47:44

It’s a job if you feel you’re undervalued or underpaid. And again, every survey I’ve ever seen when it came to looking at salary, in terms of importance, salary was always down around, you know, 6, 7, 8, 9 in terms of, you know, you want to be valued for your opinion, you want to feel like you contribute to the organization and stuff like that. But I would, but I don’t think it’s unrealistic. And I think it would show confidence, if you knew what you were worth, if you knew what you had done in other organizations, and you were willing to bring that forth and just say to your boss, hey, look, I understand that I understand where you’re coming from. But here’s what I feel I bring to the table, here’s what I believe I am worth. And again, I will respect an individual that was confident enough to do that. If you’re not confident in your ability, or if you’re not confident that you know, like I said, if you’re gonna move a widget from one side of the table to the other, but you’re gonna go in and say I want $100,000 And a company car and four weeks’ vacation. Okay, you’re just not realistic, I think you have to be realistic. But again, what value are you creating for that company? What problem? are you solving for that company? And if you put it in that context, then I don’t know, where does your boss go with that? It’s like, look, here’s, here’s what I’m gonna do for you. This is what I feel I’m worth

 

AT:  49:03

and is there a different technique to negotiate more time, like hybrid format? working remotely is a different technique, or basically the same technique.

 

TT:  49:10

I think you can ask the other thing when you’re talking about salary, I would recommend that you not say okay, I want $50,000 A year, I would say like I want $52,714.62 a year, and they’re gonna look at you like you’re nuts. But what that does is put in their mind. He’s got a reason that he asked for that kind of money. He’s there’s something you know, whether he’s got a car payment, or he’s got, there’s a reason so people are gonna look at you like, yeah, you’re kind of nuts, but they’re also going to say, Okay, this guy’s thought about it. You know, there’s a calculation there and he understands how much money he needs to take this job and there’s a greater chance you’re going to get that than the person who just says I want $50,000 A year. Use weird numbers. You Use odd numbers don’t just go with route 50,000 45,000 100,000. You know, I want to make $105,612.68 That’s kind of weird. But there must be a reason that he’s asking for that kind of money. So, they’ll think you’ve thought it through whether you have or not. It’s just a tactic.

 

AT:  50:20

Yeah, I agree with that. I use that tactic number salary, but I use it for Facebook marketplace negotiations, I whatever asking price they do, I just do 25%. So, it comes up with like, really weird numbers, and I make that offer the weird number.

 

TT:  50:34

Exactly. And that’s, you know, if you’re going to say buy a coffee table, and there’s room for wiggle, what you do is you say, okay, I want to spend $100 For that coffee table. And then you, you step back and you say, okay, my first offer is going to be 65%. So, $65, and then your next offer will be at 5%. So okay, you know, we’re at $5. And then the next offer will be 95% $95. And then you get to that point where, okay, I’ll give you the 100 bucks, but you may get it for $65. But what you the way you do that is you say to people, Look, I’m gonna, I’m gonna give you a number here, you’re not going to like it, I don’t want to offend you. If you set the person up to understand that you’re going to give them a lowball offer, they’re not going to be like, geez, Ann, I can’t believe you said that and walk away from you. They’re already prepared that you’re gonna lowball them. And then it’d be like, I can’t do 65. But I can do 75, boom, $75, you just got it for $35, you save 25 bucks.

 

AT:  51:37

That’s a good point. So you would say, Well, I’m gonna give you a number. But I don’t want to, I don’t want you to feel offended.

 

TT:  51:44

I don’t feel offended. Say you’re in a hotel and you want to late checkout, and they don’t give late checkout, go down to the desk, don’t call them go down to the desk, go to the person because now you’re face to face. We talked about that a minute ago, it’s a lot easier. You know, when you’re holding hands with your husband to figure things out, then yelling and screaming across the room, go into him and walk up to him and say, Look, I’m going to make your day really, really difficult, but I’ve got a request for you. So you’re already setting them up for okay, this guy’s gonna ask me something off the wall. That’s just gonna be crazy. And you say, can I get a late checkout? Can I get like an hour extra? And they’re gonna be Oh, God, I thought you were gonna ask me something really stupid? No, yeah, absolutely. Sure you can get it 99% of time you’ll get that late checkout.

 

AT:  52:25

That’s an awesome tactic. So, you would say I don’t want to offend you. But would you take say this price? Essentially?

 

TT:  52:31

Exactly. Yeah. But you would kind of you know, you got to get into for all the lactic and they’re like, I’m gonna throw a price out. Yeah, but I don’t want to upset you. I don’t want to I don’t want to get you really mad. But what would you say for $65? Because you’ve already set them up that you know, I mean, they’re thinking, Oh, my God, this guy’s gonna offer me $25 For this $100 coffee table. $65. Oh, that’s not too bad. Yeah, so.

 

AT:  52:54

I love it. I have a lot of things to purchase for the new primary. Thank you so much. I know. We’re running out of time here. We’ve talked so much about, you know, from how to sustain your excellence, how to find your passion, your hobbies and all like to negotiate it and debating negotiation tactics. Can we pick three takeaways, where we have so much, three takeaways you want the audience to remember from this episode?

 

TT:  53:21

You know, I’m big on and I think you are too on family and things like that. So, I think when you’re negotiating when you’re dealing with human beings, and we did this when we were negotiating with, you know, homicide suspects or people that had barricaded themselves with a gun and things like that, understand that trust and love, especially in families, I mean, love not so much more of the work that I did. But trust is the overarching thing that develops better relationships that really gets good relationships going and keeps them going. If I can’t trust you, if I don’t try. I mean, if your husband did something you didn’t trust him, you might stay married to him, but think how much better your relationship would be if you did trust him. And so trust is a huge thing. Never if you can’t never try to get to a point where you lose that trust with another human being that matters to you. So, I’d say that would be one thing. The other thing I would say is the importance of no, no is not. No no just means not yet. So, realize that in your life. Don’t you know that old saying never take no for an answer. But negotiate from a position of strength. The more you know about an individual find out about them who ask them about themselves, ask them about things that matter to them and not about work stuff. 

 

If I were to go into a meeting with somebody, I’d ask him Hey, what are you doing you know your off time when you’re not working? Well this guy’s interested in me if I’m interested in you, we like to be with people that we are similar to you know, if I felt I had a lot in common with you and you felt you had a lot in common with we spend a lot of time now we want you to call me we’d be friends and stuff like that. If He didn’t have a lot of stuff in common, we wouldn’t spend as much time together. So, figure out what that person likes. And then build on that, you know, and use that to your benefit. And it sounds like you’re using people and when you negotiate you are I hate to say this, but you really are. And when you’re negotiating you, the more information you have about the person, the easier it is for you to negotiate and get what you want. And then understand that negotiations are getting someone else to do what you want them to do. It’s that simple.

 

AT:  55:32

That’s amazing. I love all of it. I’m gonna use a lot of the tactics that you have talked about, and what do you have any resources you can share with the audience, either website, books, podcasts, and also your own? You know, how do people contact you you own websites and books?

 

TT:  55:48

Sure. So, the book is called Sustainable Excellence: The 10 Principles to Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life. You can get it anywhere, you can get a book online, Amazon, BarnesandNoble.com, Apple iBooks. Wherever you get your books, you can get Sustainable Excellence. The blog that I talked about earlier, Motivational Check. Again, I put a thought for the day up every day. With that thought comes a question about maybe how you could apply that thought into your life. On Mondays I put up a Monday morning motivational message of recommendations for books to read, my podcasts are on there, you can leave me a message or a note, I would only ask that you please leave me a message in English. I don’t speak any other languages and stuff. People send me messages. And I’m like, I don’t even know what this language is. I don’t want to be rude. And I really want to respond. But if you want to send me a message, you can do that at motivationalcheck.com.

 

AT:  56:37

Awesome. Thank you so much for your time, I know the listeners are going to gain so much value. We talked about everything from more of a life like a holistic point of view, to like the nitty-gritty of the negotiation tactics that you’ve been talking to your spouse and maybe your boss so and negotiating your salary. So, all the show notes, everything we talked about all the resources are going to be linked in the episode page at itsnotrocketscienceshow.com And also, if you want to book your complimentary coaching to get 10 hours back a week and just wonder one hour that goes to add some md.com you can fill out the application, see if this is right for you. And we can book a 60-minute complimentary coaching call. So again, thank you so much, Terry, and remember everyone that everything we need is within us now. Thank you.

 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

 

[OUTRO]

Announcer:  57:33

That’s it for today’s episode. Head on over to iTunes and subscribe to the show. One lucky listener every single week that posts a review on iTunes will win a chance in the grand prize drawing to win a private VIP Day for a health and life makeover with Dr. Ann Tsung, herself. Then, be sure to head on over to itsnotrocketscienceshow.com and pick up your free gift from Dr. Tsung. Then, join us on the next episode.

 

[END]